Duffbert's Random Musings

1 - You don't mention the significance of the Notes Rich Client and Eclipse as an execution environment or the other benefits of the Notes Client (e.g. security, client/server architecture, backward compatibility, mashups, ECL, integrated messaging, replication, disconnected workflow model, etc.).

Even without email and the other PIM functions, the Notes Client and Eclipse is an fantastic runtime environment.

2 - Keep in mind I didn't say the Notes client wasn't a fantastic environment. I agree that it is. I'm merely approaching the whole "Notes sucks" argument from a different angle, seeing if you can turn the primary strength of Notes/Domino into the primary way you'd sell and position the software.

Just toying around with brain flashes...

3 - We have often presented Domino as an application platform. A recent client that we were working with to move down the Domino path for applications was using Exchange however they saw the benefits of Domino from an application stand point. In the final stages of the deliberation, in a demo to the CFO, the CFO asked "Can't we use this stuff for email as well?" . The IT Manager and I just smiled at each other and 3 months later they had migrated away from Exchange and completed the first Notes/Domino 8.0 implementation in Australia. Case Study about the implementation here - { Link }

Without doubt we should be promoting the capabilities of Domino as an application platform. Messaging is secondary in my view.

4 - It's interesting, back in the day at Lotus, we used to make a point of avoiding a focus on email, as that leveled the playing field too much for Microsoft allowing them to say "oh we do that too"

Here are some intro slides I used to use with potential Notes customers in 1995, notice how little email is mentioned.

{ Link }

Obviously, for a while we primarily offered cc:Mail as the mail platform and actually mentioning Notes as a mail platform often confused customers so that is also part of the reason mail was mentioned so little in a Notes presentation.

But I agree, I find more value in my Notes apps running my business than I do in using it as a mail client.

5 - Is there any commercial interest for IBM/Lotus pushing the Domino/web apps platform rather than 1000s of mail client licenses?

I'm not sure where the money is for them - is it per-seat licensing or server licenses? Given the amount I can do by buying one server from them (scores of websites on one box), I would suggest their money is still in client licenses - so it will never be a push without a significant business shift change for them.

Saying all that, the conversations that have started around opensource for the designer side might make sense with what you've said here - spread the word how brilliant Domino is as a web development platform, bring fresh blood/graduate developers in, and increase paid seats because of the comfort and happiness around the development community.

One thing I don't think IBM/Lotus get is that the image of Lotus Notes in a company is thwarted not just because of the politics sorrounding Microsoft/Lotus but because the legacy apps developed in a company are diabolical - demographics of the developers are getting older, with no new blood coming in and the apps are dying or moving to Sharepoint, etc, rather than being seen as invigorating or fresh!

This idea of yours, and perhaps the open source route could be HUGE. All it takes is IBM/Lotus to make a choice. The rest will follow.

I'd like to talk some more with you and people at Lotus/IBM and brainstorm a business model that makes economic sense to take this forward.

6 - Lotus-based work nowadays focusses pretty much solely on Domino as a web application platform in these parts, yes! No email, and very little in the way of client apps (certainly no 8.x + apps)

7 - Although Ben has a different view of the market (I tend to say that client work does exist but is often done by interns) I don't think that Domino is yet competitive as a web application platform. And as a web application platform it would again run against Websphere Application Server with the result that IBM probably again sells Domino for the poor tasks and WAS for the ones that need real power. This message works well for the competition but I am a bit tired about it. The best way to make Domino more competitive again is a constant investment in all its capabilities. There have been years wasted where Domino was not allowed to innovate. Much will depend on IBM showing their commitment to further invest besides recycling Workplace components into Domino (but they did this in a very smart way at least for XPages).

8 - I've always pushed Notes as an application development environment and believe that if a strategic application can be found at the outset the email basically pays for itself.

I've seen situations like Adam describes @3 and it's great when the customer figures it out for themselves.

9 - @6: far different observation from north east US. I see mostly client apps, and in a fairly progressive company, that's probably 90% of what I still build. With the Notes client evolving into a larger and larger product, I don't see the downside of writing client apps, and the speed at which I can crank them out and get 100% repeatability without cross-browser issues beats web in speed probably 2 to 1. At my company, we have no desire to leave the client, unless we're writing external apps.

Agreed IBM needs to sell the app dev, as email is a commodity and frankly, I woudn't run Domino just for email (neither would I run Exchange, but that's off topic). The problem I have is that when I was a developer at a previous company, IBM came into our established Notes shop and pushed websphere. My company went with .Net, because it was cheaper.

IBM needs to figure out where Notes stands vs WS. It's that simple. Domino can trump asp.net development with ease and get email for free, but when IBM attempts to put up websphere against .Net in a Domino shop, it's basically saying "Domino isn't robust enough for your needs".

10 - I could just copy/paste most everything that Mike said and it applies to me, but I'm here in the south east US.

Notes/Domino for ~just~ email is dumb and I think you are correct in that most of the "Notes sucks" you read about or hear about is almost entirely related to Notes email. I think IBM has made enormous strides in making the email portion of the client better in terms of what it can do and the general usability but I think, as do a lot of the users at my company, that it is now too slow and most of them I end up putting the UseBasicNotes=1 to the INI.

11 - I think another big factor in most of the "Notes sucks" shops is bad implementations and crappy coding. Notes/Domino is a very robust development platform, but there are people that only know how to use 5% of that platform and sell themselves as being experts. These people are the cause of poor performing environments and unusable applications, thus giving Notes a bad name and giving management a reason to migrate away from it.
This is only one example --> { Link }